| Author | Topic: Getting the Right Tone |
| Alan F. Brookes Member From: Brummy living in California, USA |  posted 21 July 2006 08:13 AM profile I don't know what I'm doing wrong, but I never seem to get the tone that I hear on records. At the moment I'm using a Carter Starter, but I have several other instruments. I'm using an old Fender Vibro Champ Tube Amplifier, and have tried every variation of vibrato speed and depth, combined with tape echo, electronic echo, reverb.... you name it. I've been playing pedal for about a year and non-pedal for about 40 years. The notes come out okay but the sound doesn't.Apart from amplification, how do most of you add vibrato with your left hand ? Do you roll the bar, vibrate laterally up and down the strings, or push into the strings towards the fingerboard ? |
| Ray Minich Member From: Limestone, New York, USA | posted 21 July 2006 08:48 AM profile Don't stop practicing, don't give up, it'll come to ya. There is no one tone, there are a lot of them. There's a particular Ray Price tune, from the late '50's, with Buddy accompanying him, that sounds like the steel and amp were 100 feet back into a 20 foot diameter sluice pipe. Sounds beautiful but I have no idea how it was done. |
| Donny Hinson Member From: Balto., Md. U.S.A. | posted 21 July 2006 09:35 AM profile Alan, let's see, how can I put this politely...your amp is anemic, really! While that Champ may be fine for lap steel, it doesn't have the power or tone for pedal steel, even when practicing. You need something with more watts, and you definitely need an amp with a "Middle" tone control. Pedal steels are chock full of highs and mids, and you have to tone them down to get a smooth, fat sound. The "Mid" control is the most important factor in an amp for PSG. As far as the vibrato, when I'm doing slow stuff, it's a very slight rolling motion of the bar that I use. For fast stuff, with a faster vibrato, it's a fast sliding action, back and forth. Go easy on these techniques because it's real easy to overdo it. You didn't say what kind of volume pedal you had, that info might be helpful too! [This message was edited by Donny Hinson on 21 July 2006 at 09:36 AM.] |
| Bobby Lee Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA | posted 21 July 2006 09:50 AM profile Here are my suggestions. YMMV.  Your amp should be super clean. A little bit of reverb never hurts. A single delay slap in the 300ms range will fatten your tone. Don't overdo it - 25% is probably loud enough. Pick halfway between your bar and the bridge to generate the richest harmonics. For more twang, move closer to the bridge. Pick so that the string rolls off the tip of your pick. The string should not slide along the edge of your pick. Roll the bar for country vibrato. Slide it for blues vibrato. ------------------ [This message was edited by Bobby Lee on 21 July 2006 at 10:33 AM.] |
| Pete Burak Member From: Portland, OR USA | posted 21 July 2006 10:34 AM profile Get a Nashville 112, and a stereo deley/reverb unit. The Vibro-Champ will be good enough for running in stereo with a Steel amp (for practicing - try putting a stomp box EQ in front of it). Another idea, if you have a 4ohm 12" or 15" speaker/cab around you could use an EQ before the Champ (to get better control of mids/lows), then run the output of the Champ to the bigger speaker (again, for practicing). Just some ideas. |
| Alan F. Brookes Member From: Brummy living in California, USA | posted 21 July 2006 11:29 AM profile The volume pedal is the one that came with the Carter Starter. Since I do a lot of multiple-tracking recording (I usually start of with singing and picking a guitar, then adding additional instruments) I would like to take the output of the Carter straight into the mixing panel. |
| Greg Cutshaw Member From: Corry, PA, USA | posted 21 July 2006 11:40 AM profile Since you mention going straight into the mixing board, and talk about the recorded tone of others you have heard, are you concerned about the tone you hear direct from your amp or the recorded tone? Greg |
| Alan F. Brookes Member From: Brummy living in California, USA | posted 21 July 2006 11:50 AM profile I'm concerned about the recorded sound. But, either way it doesn't sound like the records. |
| Tucker Jackson Member From: Portland, Oregon, USA | posted 21 July 2006 12:53 PM profile Alan, for recording direct, I recommend you consider getting a Line6 POD. They were originally designed specifically for this purpose, as an "amp modeler," to allow you to approximate the sound of an amplifier rig (tubes, eq circuitry, speaker, effects) when recording "direct." Some folks use them in a live situation for tone shaping and effects, but the original idea for the POD -- and it's strong suit -- is as a tool for direct recording. Especially recommended for 6-string guitar, but the newer ones work well for steel guitar too. |
| Greg Cutshaw Member From: Corry, PA, USA | posted 21 July 2006 01:10 PM profile I have had some luck recording direct with reverb in my Yamaha workstation. The sound is real smooth and deep but not very colorful or interesting. If you record with a microphone like a Shure SM-57 in front of any decent amp you may like the sound better. Putting an amp modeler in line can work also. My recorded sounds are not exactly like what you hear mostly today, but you are welcome to email me for suggestions if you like any of the sounds on my web site. Greg |
| John McGann Member From: Boston, Massachusetts, USA | posted 21 July 2006 02:06 PM profile The VibroChamp has an 8" speaker, the likes of which no pedal steel has been recorded through since the days of the early tweed amps (if ever). The VibroChamp maxes out at under 10 watts (I think). Not near enough clean power to be heard over a 5 person conversation in a living room, let alone a bar. I know Jimmy Page recorded through them, but that's a different world of guitar tone. Pedal steel tone is something else. I'd keep the VibroChamp for guitar (I have one myself, neat little amp!) and get a good expressly-voiced-for-pedal-steel amp. Many (not all) players agree that amps voiced for 6 string guitar are lacking for pedal steel. If you want true flexibility in tone colors, check out the Revelation Tube Preamp. ------------------ [This message was edited by John McGann on 21 July 2006 at 02:09 PM.] |
| Alan F. Brookes Member From: Brummy living in California, USA | posted 21 July 2006 02:08 PM profile I realise that recorded sound doesn't always equate to real sound. I worried for years that no 12-string guitar I played ever sounded like Leadbelly until, after buying about a dozen 12-string guitars, I realised that his sound had been changed by the equipment it was recorded on, and so even he didn't sound like his recordings. (It's not on this topic, but I recently bought a Craviola 12-string, and it's the best-sounding 12 string I've ever played.) |
| Bobby Lee Sysop From: Cloverdale, North California, USA | posted 21 July 2006 02:50 PM profile It's not easy to get a good tone without an amp. The sounds that you hear on records were made with amps, not direct. A pedal steel doesn't sound as good going direct as it does when you actually push some air. ------------------ |
| Gary Shepherd Member From: Fox, Oklahoma, USA | posted 21 July 2006 03:49 PM profile I've only recorded steel on a few of my tunes. I went directly from the guitar to my mixer and then to the computer stuff in Sonar. I use Native Instruments Guitar Rig to mold the clean pedal steel sound. I used headphones to hear everything. When I track some more pedal steel, I think I'll stick a mic in front of my Nashville 1000 AND go direct and clean from my pedal - which has 2 outputs. ------------------ Carter D-10 |
| Joe Smith Member From: Charlotte, NC, USA | posted 21 July 2006 05:23 PM profile Alan, you may be able to get a good recorded sound with the champ, but the best amp for steel IMHO is the Peavey Nashville 112. Also look at getting a condenser mike. A good cheap mike that sounds pretty good is the MXL990S. You can get them from Musicans Friend for 69.99. It is a good all around mike for a home studio. It does need 48 volt phantom power. I have recorded with dynamic mikes and never got a good sound out of them for recording. |
| richard burton Member From: Britain | posted 21 July 2006 11:43 PM profile I use the line out from my Peavey Vegas amp, into the recording device/computer etc. I also put a dummy jack into the 'power amp in' socket to silence the Vegas speaker. This allows me to keep the volume as quiet as a whisper, if necessary, whilst still maintaining the ability to shape the tone with the usual Vegas controls. |
| Nic du Toit Member From: Milnerton, Cape, South Africa | posted 22 July 2006 03:44 AM profile Bobby Lee is right on the nail. I've tried recording straight to desk, via effects units the lot, but nothing gives you the 'right' sound than a Shure 57 placed in the right spot on front of your amp. Here are some examples; just click on the "Steel Heaven" picture in my signature Regards, [This message was edited by Nic du Toit on 22 July 2006 at 03:45 AM.] [This message was edited by Nic du Toit on 22 July 2006 at 03:48 AM.] |
| Ray Minich Member From: Limestone, New York, USA | posted 22 July 2006 02:49 PM profile Tom Killen went "right to the board" from a Profex II at the Goerge Jones concert I attended last year, but I would think they probably had to do a lot of experimenting to get the right equalization, levels, etc. |
| Alan F. Brookes Member From: Brummy living in California, USA | posted 22 July 2006 05:23 PM profile Thank you all for your comments. Nic, I went onto your website and played all the selections. Very impressive. |
| b0b Sysop From: Cloverdale, California, USA | posted 22 July 2006 06:39 PM profile Since this has become an amplifier topic, I've moved it to "Electronics". |
Bobby Lee (a.k.a. b0b) - email: 
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